high total alkalinity low ph

An unbalanced alkaline level diminishes your hot tub’s appearance, making it dull-looking and giving the water a greenish hue. The ideal range of alkalinity in your hot tub, as expressed in parts per million, is 80-120 ppm. Total alkalinty is 218, PH is 6.8, and I'm constantly adding PH UP. Answer: Add Muriatic Acid to lower both the pH and TA: Your TA should be between 80 - 120 pmm. But generally, borate has around 9.5 pH which is very high and you will need to add it in small amounts while measuring your pH levels. Later on, you can aerate to raise the pH level if it goes much lower than is recommended. Yes, too low or too high alkalinity or pH can kill your fish in your tank. You need to raise pH first to levels higher than recommended, then add Muriatic acid to reduce both pH and TA. pH & Alkalinity Increaser is sodium bicarbonate (also called sodium hydrogen carbonate). Low Total Alkalinity. How to Balance PH & Alkalinity. What am I doing wrong? It is important to note that both the levels of TA and pH reduce when acid is added. I'm afraid to continue to add muriatic acid and cause my TA to drop even lower. Help Please. So the best thing is to add Muriatic acid to the pool to lower the TA down between 100 - 125 ppm, then add 20 Mule Team Borax to raise the pH to the recommended levels between 7.2 and 7.8. Ive tried everything. Let’s figure it out. Just as low pH and low calcium hardness levels can be damaging to your hot tub, so can having a low total alkalinity level. Barack James (author) from Green City in the Sun on June 11, 2018: Your pH is too low and TA too high: You need to bring down the TA using Muriatic acid. Add muriatic acid slowly by slowly so that your pH doesn't go below 7.2. 0 is the acid end of the scale, with pH 0 being hydrochloric acid or battery acid. Once you get your pH higher, you can then use muriatic to lower both the alkalinity and pH. I have 23,000 gallon pool. Can you tell me how much borax and muriatic acid to add for a 15000 gallon above ground vinyl pool? If the pH and alkalinity are both higher than recommended levels, muriatic acid (HCl 31.4 percent), dry acid (sodium bisulfate, NaHSO4), sulfuric acid (H2SO4) are added or carbon dioxide (CO2) is injected to lower them. (Again, don't worry much about the pH yet, because the "magical" aeration process is still going on.). How can I have a low PH and a high TA ? If you have a cloudy swimming pool water or a pool algae breakout, then it is likely caused by high TA and high pH levels and you need to shock the pool to balance everything out again. When Alkalinity is LOW, this causes pH to "bounce" or change easily - you may raise the pH, but it only lasts for a few hours. In simpler terms, total alkalinity is a measurement of the water’s ability to resist change in pH. The PH is also still high. You can have a high (or low) pH water with very little buffering capacity, meaning you can easily and quickly change the pH of the water; this also means the water is unlikely to change the pH … At that time, TA was ranging at 106 ppm, and pH had dropped to 6.9. I can't seem to get my ph and alkalinity down to readable levels. Likewise, if you lower alkalinity to the recommended level (e.g., from 300 ppm to 80 ppm), the pH level drops way below the recommended level. Barack James (author) from Green City in the Sun on July 25, 2019: There is no way to lower TA without lowering your pH. How much 20 mule borax do I use first to raise the PH? pH stands for potenz Hydrogen, more commonly referred to as the "power of Hydrogen". For low pH chlorines like Trichlor, 100-120 ppm might be a … On the other end of the scale is bleach at pH 13.5 and liquid drain cleaner at pH 14. Question: I recently had an in-ground, 13,300 gallon, saltwater pool installed. If your pH has reached down to 7.2 and Alkalinity is still high, add 20 Mule Team Borax to raise pH higher around 7.8 then add more Muriatic acid to lower both until both are balanced. Question: I have been working to lower my alkalinity, and I got it to a 1.5, and it has gone back up to a 200. Taking the reading after six hours is just to help you know whether you are making any improvements in lowering the TA and pH. If you add a strong acid like muriatic and then add a base like soda ash to raise total alkalinity, it will not work. Any help would be appreciated. When carbon dioxide mixes with water, it forms an acid we call carbonic acid, which lowers the pH levels. The first one I prefer is natural method where you just leave the pool pump running after adding muriatic acid and the TA is already back to range then the pH will rise back to normal within 24 hours. What kind of solution should I put in the pool? So when acid is added, carbonate ions can absorb Hydrogen to create bicarbonate ions. Question: I'm in the process of stabilizing my chemical levels in our pool to get it ready for the season. What do I do? Changing pH will also change TA. It’s understandable, given how blurred the line is between words like “alkaline” and “alkalinity.” Indeed, alkalinity and pH in water chemistry are closely related, but they are not the same. Hi we have a spa pool ph is 8.4 alkalinity 240, We have just cleaned and refilled spa following instructions we were given, We got oh increase and decrease and alkaline up. Notice the pH meter in the background (reading 5.477 at the moment). We have high ph water. I went and bought a new bottle of clorox Test strips I tested with. The equilibrium looks like this: Pool IAQ interview with Keith Coursin, Desert Aire. Answer: First, you need to stabilize pH and TA. The more CO2, the lower the pH, and vice versa. I have been working to lower my TA and pH with muriatic acid. As such, you need to add borax to raise pH first to around 7.8, then add muriatic acid to bring both the pH (7.4 - 7.6) and TA (80 - 120ppm). So the choice will depend on the amount you are willing to spend on a pool water test kit. Lowering PH & Alkalinity Levels. But I will Let you know what the reading are and if the test strips were giving a bad reading. On the other hand, high pH raises the LSI, and leads to carbonate scale formation, cloudy water, and weaker chlorine (in non-stabilized pools). All you have to do is add muriatic acid to lower both totally alkalinity and pH, then aerate the pool to balance pH out. Borate should be in the range of 30 to 50ppm and not more. Answer: TA affects pH levels; high TA raises the pH and low TA reduces the pH. People confuse pH vs. alkalinity and we can understand why. Answer: You need to add Muriatic acid to reduce the TA, but remember that any acid will lower the level of the pH too. Re: Low PH -- High Alkalinity Welcome to the forum! This is because any strong acid like Muriatic acid or any pH minus with acid will lower both pH and TA. It is recommended that all information from this or any other source is to be performed assuming individuals performing these functions will consult local state and federal requirements before you act upon it in any way. the TA is between 120-180, PH 7.2, how can I get the TA to the right level without affecting the PH level? Try an air compressor with an end tube that has several tiny holes in it. The small bubbles that escape from the holes produce carbon dioxide, which is released to accelerate the aeration process. The total alkalinity of your pool is a measure of the amount of alkaline substances in the water. Total alkalinity is an important measure that, while having an effect on pH, is separate from pH. Total Alkalinity is too low: pH is difficult to balance and change quickly. The key is to measure acid and dilute it before pouring to avoid overcorrections. I have a Zodiac Tri Expert with pH and ACL auto adjustments. I have an in ground fiberglass pool. What can I do? Two situations where they cannot be ignored, however, are when borate is artificially high, as is true in some commercial salt mixes, and when one is considering In this picture, a USGS scientist is performing an alkalinity titration to determine the alkalinity of a water sample. My plan is to point the return up for aeration on the surface - I never thought of that, and I have not been patient enough. Soda ash and baking soda raises alkalinity to abnormal levels, which in turn also increases the pH to a disproportionate amount. Answer: Your TA is not very bad, and you will not need much muriatic acid to lower it to settle between 100 - 120 ppm. Acidification of water having high pH but low alkalinity is rarely necessary. This is an equilibrium, just like pH, so it can go the other way too. You can lower alkalinity using acid. Don’t worry about the math, it’s just to explain the pH scale itself. I have tried to reduce TA with muriatic acid for a couple of months but adding it just decreases the PH and the TA stays the same. If you are in the market for an alkalinity increaser, the two most common are sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) and sodium carbonate (Na2CO3), more commonly known as soda ash. Remember that even if the natural aeration process is not complete, pH levels will not likely rise above the recommended levels because the alkalinity is within range and no pH increaser was used in this process. Hi Rosa, what is your pH reading? Amazingly, when I tested the water six hours later, total alkalinity read around 205 ppm (down from the original 280 ppm) and pH was at 7.6 (from where we started at 8.3). The ideal total alkalinity level is 80 to 120 ppm. What about low alkalinity? Today I just tested the pool and the reading are, PH 6.8 ( I tested 6 times in different places). The only difference is what chemicals you need to use. Answer: 1 box of borax will increase pH in a 20000 gallon pool by 0.1, meaning your pool will need around 2 to 3 boxes of borax and then carefully add muriatic acid to bring down both pH and TA since your TA is a little higher. Use a pool calculator to calculate the exact amount of muriatic acid you will need in order to achieve the target value of 100 ppm for TA, or whichever target value you have chosen. If your pH goes down below the recommended levels and TA still high; you will have to repeat the process till they both balance out. The lower you go … Alkaline substances can cause the pH of your pool's water to change in an uncontrolled manner. Total alkalinity should only be lowered when it causes a significant rise in pH levels, or when it causes. Water has a natural pH balance that is normally around 7, or neutral. Inefficient Sanitiser. The pH scale is a spectrum that goes from highly acidic, represented by 0, to highly basic or high alkalinity, represented by 14. While this site attempts to provide information that may be relevant to you, no guarantees are made that some relevant information will not be missed. I recommend you use the Taylor test kit or Lamotte ColorQ Pro test kit that will give you exact readings of chemicals in your pool. ), which can throw the LSI off, and in turn, etch the surface. The TA is 240, but the Ph is 6.8 . Add alkalinity increaser so that your TA reads over 100ppm, then add muriatic acid to lower both pH and TA. Total alkalinity is an important measure that, while having an effect on pH, is separate from pH. Good information to use for pool maintenance. The scale is logarithmic, which means each whole number on the 1-14 pH scale is 10 times more or less than the numbers around it. I brushed the walls and the bottom then vacuumed it. Could you please clarify? Question: Alkalinity 220 and pH 6.8.added 15 pounds pH + still reading 6.8 ph? Twelve hours after the last treatment I am still sitting at around 230 total alkalinity. I seen where you said to accelerate the aeration process. Question: How do you know how much borax, per gallons of water? However, Lamotte colorQ pro 11 can do a few more tests including copper, iron, and biguanide; which are not very important pool chemical tests and you can do without. However, you can always use an air compressor or any other aerator to accelerate the process. So you can have lower alkalinity, like 80-100 ppm, or even lower than 80 ppm if your LSI allows for it. Total alkalinity and pH measurement are not a relative measure. What are your recommendations? It could be possible that your pool fillwater is already high in alkalinity and will therefore increase your TA once it mixes with more Alkalinity Increaser you are using. Another problem can result when the hot tub alkalinity is too high. In other words, anything acidic. If your pH has 7.2 but TA is still high, add more borax to raise your pH again up to around 7.8, then add Muriatic acid to lower both once more till you get your TA within the range. 7 is the neutral value. Barack James (author) from Green City in the Sun on June 05, 2017: Magnum that is true, Super Floc is the solution for a cloudy water caused by lots of debris. The total alkalinity of your pool is a measure of the amount of alkaline substances in the water. Assuming that your CYA wasn't really extreme (I assumed 40 ppm) then 1.5 quarts (6 cups) of Muriatic Acid (31.45%) in your 13,600 gallon pool with a pH of 7.9 and a TA of 216 should have resulted in a pH of 7.4 and a TA of 203. Balancing your PH and Alkalinity follows the same concept for both. If your alkalinity levels are too high, then your pH levels will also be affected. The use of acid injection sh ould be considered very carefully for several reasons. I came to realize that he was using soda ash to increase the pH whenever it dropped below the recommended level, and baking soda to raise TA. Total Alkalinity Total Alkalinity is a measure of the amount of buffering capacity in the water. Just as low pH and low calcium hardness levels can be damaging to your hot tub, so can having a low total alkalinity level. Total Alkalinity should be kept between 80-120 ppm (30-90 ppm if using Cleanwater Blue system). Tested again still high. You need to use an accurate water test kit that can give you correct readings. I tested it 6 hrs later the PH was 7.8 . Corrosion on metal equipment. For this math, let’s just round it to exactly 3.0. To keep total alkalinity readings inside the acceptable range of 80 to 120 PPM. You may have to repeat the process if your TA is still high after adding muriatic acid. For the record, your pool’s pH level should never exceed a pH level of 7.8. It is the negative logarithm of Hydrogen ion concentration in a solution. We have 10000 pool, filled well water. In this step, don't worry too much about the pH yet. The total alkalinity is maintained at a minimum of 80 ppm to a maximum of 160 ppm, with an ideal range of 100 ppm to 140 ppm. Re: Low PH -- High Alkalinity Welcome to the forum! Answer: If the pH and TA levels are not balanced properly, you will have to repeat the process until they balance out. If you already know you have low pool alkalinity but pH is OK, get some alkalinity increaser to bring it back up to the recommended levels, and do it fast to avoid corrosion. It’s an important part of balancing pH levels. Should I add another gallon of muriatic acid, or should I shock it, wait 24 hours and then add more acid? Good luck Roy! The ideal total alkalinity level is 80 to 120 ppm. TA should never go below 80ppm. This is an important distinction to make, because this is usually how pH and alkalinity get confused. It acts as a shock absorber for the pH. I always recommend natural aeration because with this method, you cannot over-aerate your pool, which is a very common issue when aeration equipment is used. Answer: Add Muriatic acid to lower pH between 7.2 and 7.8. This interference with Hydrogen is why alkalinity buffers against change in pH. Answer: Are you using muriatic acid? Many of us in aquatics confuse. Question: I have high total alkalinity and low ph - this is the most comprehensive explanation of what is happening and how to solve it Thank You! You can find 20 Mule Team Borax and Muriatic acid on Amazon through the links in the same article. Acid runoff depletes the water’s alkalinity and lowers pH below optimum levels. You need to add more muriatic acid to farther lower both TA and pH, then give your pool time to aerate in order to raise the pH level. If Total Alkalinity is too low, the water is acidic and can corrode equipment and pool surfaces. If high alkalinity is so bad, why not just try to keep it as low as possible? You also have to be very careful when sanitizing your pool using granular chlorine to avoid pH and Calcium scaling. Over the last two weeks, I have added three quarts of diluted muriatic acid one quart at a time every three days or so. I can bring the ph up and down but not the TA. Getting a perfect balance of pH and alkalinity is a little tricky since acid will lower both but not at the same rate. Thank you. Answer: pH is the level of acidity or alkalinity in a solution. maybe 2 weeks ago I noticed the pH is low but the alkalinity is high. The pH is very low, don't add more muriatic acid because pH will go much down and may cause more problem like corrosion and metal staining. All information provided is intended for educational purposes and is not implied to replace consultation with a qualified pool professional. I use the sticks to test the water . This is the second time I have tried to lower it, and it goes back up before I am finished lowering it. Check that your pH is not above 11 and should no go below 4 as these levels are not ideal for fish rearing and might be causing larvae death. Super Floc is also safe for all pool types and works with all filter types. Barack James (author) from Green City in the Sun on August 25, 2020: Borax should always read between 30ppm to 50ppm, the best thing to do is to add borax slowly by slowly while measuring your levels. substances are by using the pH scale. The only difference is what chemicals you need to use. Also, abnormal rise in TA might be caused by the water source. Question: I checked my pool, and the pH just right, but the alkalinity is high. If the pH falls, you can raise it without affecting total alkalinity by aerating. Instead wait for the pH to rise first before proceeding. Content is for informational or entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for personal counsel or professional advice in business, financial, legal, or technical matters. If you are using a high pH chlorine, you want to keep your total alkalinity lower, closer to 80-100ppm. As long as you have enough chlorine in your pool (around 3ppm for total chlorine) and the pH level is balanced (between 7.4 to 7.8), then a pool with high total alkalinity is still safe to swim in. The pH scale goes from 0 to 14 with 7.0 considered neutral. I have tried to get my pool levels to the correct level and ots just not working im not sure what else i can do i have put muratic acid in my pool and alkalinity is still way too high mt pool watwr is very cloudy and im not sure what else to do! Refer to the same article on different ways you can bring back pH through aeration. My ph is at 6.7 and the TA is at 150. If your pool has a high level of pH but total alkalinity is OK, pick up pH Reducer and get it down to recommended levels (between 7.2 and 7.8). Tonight I am going to add another half gallon of acid. Anyways filled pool shocked it. Question: I have a 10,400 gal 21’ round pool. Answer: First of all, I am interested to know which test strip you are using because the variance between pH and TA is not real. Answer: pH is the level of acidity or alkalinity in a solution. If Total Alkalinity is too low, the water is acidic and can corrode equipment and pool surfaces. We recommend you consult a local pool professional before acting. I suggest you raise TA first because it's way below recommended range of 80 to 120ppm and if you add acid it go down further. When total alkalinity is too low, pH is unstable and may oscillate. The TA is very low, but the pH is very high. If your levels are low, add increaser, if your levels are high, add reducer! Aeration is a repetitive process that is done slowly, step by step. When the total alkalinity is low and the pH high, raise the total alkalinity first and then reduce the pH. Cal hypo comes with high pH and Calcium level and will significantly increase pH in pool if you don't take prior measures to balance your pH. Now two weeks later it's still cloudy. When using high-pH chlorines like salt chlorine generators, liquid chlorine or cal hypo, you will need less alkalinity, like 60-80 ppm. ; Let the water circulate with the pumps on for 5-10 minutes. When the concentration of hydrogen ions goes up, the pH goes down (and vice versa). Can't seem to get it under control. This might take a couple of days, remember to take accurate readings while fixing the problem. While the LSI determines when water is oversaturated with calcium carbonate (CaCO3), pH is a major factor on the LSI. They said it might be a bad batch. To raise Alkalinity, add Alkalinity Increaser, which will also slightly raise your pool pH level. In the same example above, I set my target value of TA at 100 ppm. The second cause of high pH in a pool is using Calcium Hypochlorite(powder chlorine) pool shock to sanitize pool water. Will Low Alkalinity and pH Levels Kill My Fish? I want to know how to lower my TA without lowering my PH anymore then it is. Question: I have a 17,300 gallon above ground pool. Recently, my alkalinity was measured at 240, with a pH of 7.8. In a swimming pool, the bicarbonate alkalinity is the substance that needs to be regulated. Personally, I don't like to do this because acid can damage pool parts when it is concentrated in one region. When Alkalinity is HIGH, this makes it hard to adjust pH in the first place, it makes pH very resistant to change. I breed catfish at home but the larvae after hatching begin to die slowly. Thank you Barack, I did raise the PH to 7.8 the TA is still 180. My pool is roughly 100,000L. The free chlorine is 0.05 ppm. If your total alkalinity isn’t in the correct range, it makes the pH far more likely to fluctuate or bounce around too high or too low. You may have to repeat the process till pH and TA balance. Answer: You need to raise the level of pH to read between 7.8 - 8.0 first using 20 Mule Team Borax or through aeration without raising the TA, then carefully add muriatic acid to lower both pH and TA to recommend levels. Check The Overall Pool Alkalinity: Finding out the total alkalinity level of your pool will determine if you need to increase or decrease it. If you have achieved the ideal reading for total alkalinity but the pH is scaling up because the process of aeration has not yet ceased, you can use borate to keep the pH stable. Question: I have an above ground pool. To avoid pH and TA issues, closely watch your alkalinity levels. (7.0pH - 3.0pH) = 4.0Logarithmic scale means 104, or 10x10x10x10 = 10,000Trichlor is about 10,000 times more acidic than pure water. Your numbers may be different, but you should see a similar reduction in your process too. … This acid should work well in lowering both TA and pH. Answer: Don't shock the pool until pH and Alkalinity are balanced. But that's a topic for another time. Your target TA should be 100ppm, pH is okay but when you add Muriatic acid it will go down. Use an alkalinity increaser like sodium bicarbonate to raise total alkalinity, or an acid to lower it. I have done soda ash and muriatic acid but just end up in the same mess. We measure how acidic or basic (also called alkaline) substances are by using the pH scale. Common causes of low alkalinity are things like rain or body fluids. Lanea head use a floc such as drop out to settle the cloudy water to bottom then vacuum out. I'm having trouble lowering my TA, it's at 210 but pH is at 7.6. Use return lines that are aimed up (e.g., waterfalls or spillways). It should be between 80 and 120 ppm (parts per million). I entered the readings to the Pool calculator and followed what to do. Answer: Just use muriatic acid to reduce the TA down to normal, pH too will reduce but that is not a problem because you will use aeration process to bring back pH to normal. As an aside, never mix different types of chlorine. Answer: Which dry acid are you using? TA should be between 80 to 120ppm for liner pools and 100 to 125ppm for plaster pools. Finally, since you are using well water in your pool, when you are done balancing your pH and TA, remember to add Borate in your pool to help keep the pH stable so that it does not drift down again. Anything in the extreme is always wrong. Answer: You need to raise your TA first since it's already too low. Should we be putting more salt like before? Use a degasser to remove carbon dioxide faster. First, it is an extra step in production which will require additional materials and equipment. This article is accurate and true to the best of the author’s knowledge. When total alkalinity is too high, the buffering effect may cause pH to rise and dilute the sanitizing efficacy of free chlorine. If you are using a low pH chlorine like Trichlor, you should keep your total alkalinity closer to 120ppm to counteract the strong acidity of the chlorine. I have tried using alkalinity increases which also raises my ph, and then ph down which then brings down my total alkalinity. My alkalinity has been running 11.5-12.3, but my pH has been hovering around 8.0. Total Alkalinity, or TA, should usually be kept at 80 - 120 ppm, though in high alkalinity waters this is often hard to achieve without resulting in an abnormally low pH. The lower the pH, the exponentially more Hydrogen. Also, too high of alkalinity can result in the skin of fish being burnt. Repeat until TA is within the recommended range of 80 to 120ppm and pH is between 7.2 and 7.4. In all cases, never add acid to the pool water if the pH is less than 7.2, even if the total alkalinity is high. It is so important because pH is a driving factor in the Langelier Saturation Index (LSI), and also because pH determines how effective chlorine will be in non-stabilized pools. Should we add the chemical that makes that bond to bigger pieces at the bottom of the pool and then vacuum to waste? And when it does, the pool is constantly fighting against you. You need to be very careful while adding muriatic acid since the pH may go down the recommended level that is 7.2 - 7.8. Barack James (author) from Green City in the Sun on September 03, 2017: Hi Cottpool, thanks for your comment. Another reason for more alkalinity in a trichlor pool is because the CYA in trichlor offsets alkalinity when doing LSI corrections. And since LSI violations occur locally, not universally throughout a pool, pH matters a lot. It was yucky green with lots if algae. The level of TA is too high; which calls for a lot of work. Alternatively, you can use 20 Mule Team Borax (on Amazon link above) to raise your pH without raising TA and then add muriatic acid to lower both. You could add several pounds of 8.3pH Sodium Bicarb and make the same pH impact if you added a much smaller amount of 11.6 pH soda ash. Ph is 6.8 and alkalinity is 240 ive added muratic acid twice and doesnt seem to be going down i do live in county so i have well water. I do have BioGuard® Optimiser so my local pool store says the high total alkalinty is OK. Control your pH and TA will be fine, the ideal range for fish is 6.5 - 7.5. Borax will raise pH without raising TA. The second method is where you accelerate the process by using aerators such as water fountain equipment or fitting jets to expose more pool water for aeration. If, after testing, your pool alkalinity is below 80 ppm, it is time to add up on the pH concentration. When using high-pH chlorines like salt chlorine generators, liquid chlorine or cal hypo, you will need less alkalinity, like 60-80 ppm. Is it because of high TA which is 188ppm ? What do you suggest I do? If your alkalinity levels are too high, then your pH levels will also be affected. Very frustrating. Barack James (author) from Green City in the Sun on June 15, 2019: No, those levels are too high. It also causes pH bounce. For low pH chlorines like Trichlor, 100-120 ppm might be a better range for you. Any advice you could give would be much appreciated. I put too much shock in a few days ago and it is reading 8-10.

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